SLSA EVENT RULES 8/15/12

The place for your questions and suggestions.
User avatar
Melian Catronis
SLSA Surfer
Posts: 279
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 2:43 pm
SL Name: Melian Catronis
Location: USA. Home Planet: Neptune
Contact:

SLSA EVENT RULES 8/15/12

Postby Melian Catronis » Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:28 am

The following SLSA Event Rules represent the current state of the work. It is still under revision to include things to hopefully make event proceedings more clear. The Board would like to thank all of the previous Board members, especially Sally LaSalle, who have put so much effort into this and elements that will be included in a future revision. And also to Bobbi Laval, who has updated some rules for the purposes of fairness (rule changes appear in bold print).

You may also look at the SLSA Event Rules from 2/17/11 to see the differences.




SL Surfing Association Event Rules

1. To enter competition join the Second Life "SL Surfing Association" group, and then Join the SL Surfing Association web Forum at index.php Notices that competition registration is open will be sent to the in world SL Surfing Association group, and will also appear in the forum in the Competition Registration Topic.

1.5 When 15 or more surfers are registered for the Open event, they will surf in 5 heats, and the winner of each heat and the next 5 best scoring surfers who did not win a heat in will advance to the Pro event.

2. Surfers competing in an SLSA competition must be in the SL Surfing Association group at all times during the competition.

3. Surfboards - All surfers must use surfboards supported in the competition. Information about surfboards used in the competition will be posted it the forum in the Competition Registration Topic. Surfboards the competitors use may be verified by the Beach Marshall before the heat starts. -

4. Rashguards - All surfers must wear their assigned rashguard while in the water. Failure to do so will result in disqualification.

5. Preliminary heats, semi-finals and finals will allow 3 waves per surfer.

6. Event Check in
Surfers should check in with the Event Coordinator (EC) 15 minutes prior to their assigned heat. They should:
- Ensure that they are wearing the correct color rash guard (rashie) as prescribed in the heat draws.
- Remove all HUDs and scripted attachments.
- Remove prim heavy attachments during your event.
- If you log in after your assigned heat has completed, you cannot be placed into a later heat. You forfeit your place for that event.

7. Beach Marshall Check in
When directed to by the EC, surfers should go to the designated marshaling location on the surf SIM.
The marshall will provide confirmation of surfing sequence and perform a board measurement and rashie check.

8. All ride attempts will be scored by each of 3 judges.

9. Wave score
Each wave that a surfer surfs is scored by 3 judges independently, Each judge assigns a score between 0.5 minimum and 10 maximum for each wave surfed.

10. Heat score
A surfers heat score is calculated as follows. The two best wave scores from each judge are added together for each judge. The added judge totals are then averaged between the three judges to arrive at the final score for the heat for that surfer.

11. Judging Criteria
All waves are scored out of ten points. The criteria below are a categorical breakdown of what the judges will use to score surfer rides.
For each heat, the top two wave scores per surfer are taken for a possible score of 20 points (10 per wave) from each judge. The best 2 wave total from each judge is then average with the other judges to arrive at each surfer's final score for that heat, with a maximum possible score of 20.
Wave length
A maximum of two points can be assigned for how far down the wave the surfer makes it (on their feet). The wave is divided into quarters and 0.5 points are assigned for each quarter that the surfer completes.

Style and control
A maximum of 4 points is assigned for style and control. This is a measure of how in control the surfer was of his board and the wave, whether they were able to use the entire wave, whether their moves were choreographed into a smooth transition between wave sections and tricks, and whether any innovation was exhibited. Loss of control also pertains to bellying out, and falling off either end of the wave.

Tricks and technique
A Maximum of 4 points is assigned for tricks and technique. Tricks and technique include the ability to perform inner and outer turns, low carves and high rolls, 360 and 180 combinations, barrel rolls, flips, hops between wave segments or transitions between waves, and obstacle avoidance of jumping. The nature of the break dictates what is possible.

12. Competition format
- SL Surfing Association holds two season a year - season 1: February-June, season 2: August-December
- Each season consists of 5 series with two competition per series:
- The Open competition is open for all new surfers and also those currently ranked below 20th place. All heat winners will advance to a final heat.
All heat winners and the next 5 best scoring surfers will automatically be qualified to compete in the Pro event for that series.
- The Pro competition is open for the qualifiers from the Open competition and all surfers currently ranked in the top 20.
- In Pro events surfers advance from preliminary heats to semi finals by winning their heat or by scoring in the top 6 surfers who did not win a heat. In the case of tie for winners of a heat, both winners will advance to semi final. In the case of tie for last advancing spot based on score, the tied surfers will surf off, each given a single wave until one surfer prevails to move on.

13. Individual Rank Calculation

Series Placing
Overall placing in a series is determined as follows:
- Pro Finals placing takes precedence.
- Semi final Surf-off losers take the next placing(s) in descending score order.
- Semi finalist that did not progress to the final take the next placing adding together their semi final and preliminary scores in order to sort their position by descending total points.
- Surfers not advancing to the semi finals from the preliminary heats are sorted by their scores to obtain their series place.
- Surfers not advancing from the Open Event are sorted by their scores to obtain their overall series place.

Points for Placing
Surfers are assigned the exact same number of points as their series placing. First place = 1 point, second place = 2 points, 10th place = 10 points and so on.
Points for Non Competing
Surfers that do not compete in a series (DNC) will be assigned points equal to the number of surfers that are assigned a score + 1. So for example if 40 surfers surf and obtain a score, Non Competing Surfers would receive 41 points in this example.
Points for Disqualification
Surfers that are disqualified from an event will be assigned points equal to the number of surfers that are assigned a score + 2. So for example if 40 surfers surf and obtain a score, Disqualified Surfers would receive 42 points in this example.

Rank
Overall Ranking will be determined by which surfer has the lower total for the season. The Surfers Seasons Ranking is calculated by adding the points for each series in the season and discarding the highest point (worst series score).
Discarding One Series Result.
- All surfers may discard one and only one series score (irrespective of if and how many times they may have been a volunteer).
- Surfers may not discard a disqualification.
- Surfers that finish a season ranked in the top twenty, may discard a DNC for the first series of the next season, but they will become unranked for the second series and will need to compete in the Open event to proceed to the Pro.
- Surfers that are ranked in the top twenty who miss an event by volunteering for an event official role and subsequently slip from the top twenty, shall be given a wild card entry into the next series Pro.

14. Team Rank Calculation
- The event rank points of the top 3 placing scorers for each team are added to give the team rank score for the event.
- The team with the lowest number of points for the season wins the season.

15. Competing for a team
Registrants should be an officially designated surfer of a surf team before nominating to surf for that team. Their name should be listed with the team on the SLSA internet forum, prior to the event.

16. Disqualification - A disqualification will result in the following penalties-
1st offense - surfer will be disqualified from current heat and heat score will be zero.
2nd offense - surfer will disqualified from current contest/event and that competition points will be zero.
Offenses will accumulate across multiple events.
Disqualification may be caused by:
- violation of the SL Surfing Association Code of Conduct, Second Life Terms of Service or Community Standards of Second Life.
- not belonging to the SL Surfing Association group at all times during the competition;
- using a non-supported surfboard in the competition;
- interference with other competitors rides in any way;

18. Interference -
- If a majority of judges call interference, then that wave will count in the final tally as a zero score. This applies to a riding interference or a paddling interference, where the surfer catches that particular wave.
-Under top two wave tally, the interfering surfer will be penalized with a loss of 50% of his second best scoring ride.
-If a surfer incurs another interference penalty during the same heat his best wave score will be halved also.
-A majority of judges must call the interference to be considered an interference.

19. Spectators
Spectators are expected to behave in a respectful manner to other participants of the event - spectators, competitors and officers. The event Security Officer may use their powers to eject or ban a spectator from the spectators area or sim in case they do not act according to that manner.
0 x
Just when you think you have the answers, I change the questions.

User avatar
Cierra Theriac
SLSA Surfer
Posts: 1296
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:50 pm
SL Name: Cierra Theriac
Location: Pu'u Honu - Happily under my rock
Contact:

Re: SLSA EVENT RULES 8/15/12

Postby Cierra Theriac » Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:59 pm

Will these rules be put into effect staring with Barton Springs, or are they still being worked on?
0 x
Cie
Hana hou!
cierratheriac@yahoo.com
Virtualsurfside.wordpress.com

:rocking_kitty:

Figger Arun
SLSA Surfer
Posts: 384
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:01 pm
SL Name: Figger Arun
Contact:

Re: SLSA EVENT RULES 8/15/12

Postby Figger Arun » Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:44 pm

heya

I thought that was how the open event has always been working, at least since we got it reinstated a while ago.
0 x

Bobbi Laval
SLSA Surfer
Posts: 715
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2007 1:50 pm
Contact:

Re: SLSA EVENT RULES 8/15/12

Postby Bobbi Laval » Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:39 am

Yes, in effect for Barton Springs. I notecard with the rule changes was put into the comp packs.

For the Open Comps, it's a bit different. If there are 14 surfers or less in Open, then top ten scores advance to Pro. That part remains unchanged.
In old rule, if there were 15 or more surfers, then we run 5 heats and top two from each heat would advance irregardless of score. With this change, heat winners advance and then 5 more based on score.

The intent is to make advancement to next level more fair by being more based on performance and less based on "luck of the draw".
0 x

Figger Arun
SLSA Surfer
Posts: 384
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:01 pm
SL Name: Figger Arun
Contact:

Re: SLSA EVENT RULES 8/15/12

Postby Figger Arun » Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:32 am

heya
cant argue with that, good change in my book (the Figger book)
0 x

User avatar
Kat
SLSA Hall of Fame
Posts: 253
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:03 pm
SL Name: Coolkat Delicioso
Contact:

Re: SLSA EVENT RULES 8/15/12

Postby Kat » Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:33 pm

I agree, well done :read:
0 x

User avatar
Abel Halderman
SLSA Surfer
Posts: 1802
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:07 am
SL Name: Abel Halderman
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: SLSA EVENT RULES 8/15/12

Postby Abel Halderman » Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:24 pm

"- In Pro events surfers advance from preliminary heats to semi finals by winning their heat or by scoring in the top 6 surfers who did not win a heat. In the case of tie for winners of a heat, both winners will advance to semi final. In the case of tie for last advancing spot based on score, the tied surfers will surf off, each given a single wave until one surfer prevails to move on."

Ridiculous. A surfer placing 2nd in heat 1 will have to wait until heat 6 is concluded to learn if they advanced, that may be 2-4 hours of wasted time. Personally, if I learn that I'm second in a heat and I'd have to wait 2, 3, or 4 hours to learn if I advance, I'm off. Sorry but I have a RL. It doesn't make the competitions longer objectively, but it sure makes the time ALL surfers are *required* to stick around a lot longer (even 4 hours longer).

You don't fix something that works. And no, Bobbi, it is not more fair. Like it or not, surfers get their scores in some part by comparison to other surfers in their heat. It works like that in RL and it works like that in SL.
I would love to see how happy everyone will be if there is no lag in heat 1 and heavy lag in heat 4 and thanks to that people in heat 1 get much higher scores - we all know that may happen.
Besides it takes away the fun of actually competing against someone in a heat.

May I ask whose idea was it and why such a significant change wasn't discussed with anyone on this forum having had lots of time in the off season to do that?
0 x

Figger Arun
SLSA Surfer
Posts: 384
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:01 pm
SL Name: Figger Arun
Contact:

Re: SLSA EVENT RULES 8/15/12

Postby Figger Arun » Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:38 pm

heya

hafta say I did not look at that change and Abel has a point about lag and conditions being different in each heat. about the waiting 3 or 4 hours I have mixed feelings. 1) if yer in the comp yer in the comp an it kinda sucks when people leave rite after finding out they dint advance,but 2) geeze 3 or 4 hours on weekend is a loot of time to be sitting around dancing on SL.

Figger
0 x

User avatar
Abel Halderman
SLSA Surfer
Posts: 1802
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:07 am
SL Name: Abel Halderman
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: SLSA EVENT RULES 8/15/12

Postby Abel Halderman » Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:40 pm

Figger Arun wrote:2) geeze 3 or 4 hours on weekend is a loot of time to be sitting around dancing on SL.

Yeah well... if the SLSA assumes that if people wouldn't be surfing, they'd be dancing on SL on a Saturday, they can't come from the more wrong assumption. Fun is one thing, professionalism of the regulations is another. Assumptions aside. Personally I'd be spending time in RL doing RL things instead of sitting around for 3-4 hours with a serious possibility of wasting my time (and that is *competition-wise*, not fun-wise). I think a lot of people would be spending their Saturdays in RL, as well. Not to mention people in say Australia that get up very early in the morning, surf, and then spend their mornings sitting in front of monitors instead of sleeping, or people in Europe that basically can count on wasting their Saturday evenings that way. It is fun to be around friends and all, but it should NOT be a requirement for people to sit around on the stands not knowing what and where or if they're wasting time or not. How many people do not sit around on the stands after they don't advance? I'd say most or at least a lot. Competitions end with the final heat competitors on the stands, staff and a few spectators, too, not all of the competition day surfers.
Please, common sense...
0 x

User avatar
Kat
SLSA Hall of Fame
Posts: 253
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:03 pm
SL Name: Coolkat Delicioso
Contact:

Re: SLSA EVENT RULES 8/15/12

Postby Kat » Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:44 pm

Understood, lag is an issue for us all, and yes , some heats are lagged out more than others at times, and to make it to the finals is always partially down to luck, be it the heat draw or the lag and/or your connection speed. :crazy:
I think we have all been in a heat where the rest are rippin it up out there, but you are lagged to death, but nowt you can do about it. :bw:
I think we've also all seen tough heats, where you can clearly see that every surfer in that heat would probably won a heat if they had been drawn in a different heat.

Agreed, this should have been passed over for discussion first, but so should a lot of other issues in the past, for eg, moving our home sim from Archi, so I wouldn't be over critical about directors making desicions without discussing it with members first.
Try it, if it is the case that it don't work, well then revise it again :read:

Personally I don't like hp or lsd boards in slsa comps, but hey, thats what people want, and they now have it, you have to go with peoples wishes, or at least try and accomodate them.
I can't for the life of me see how this rule is going to remove the fun of competing against someone in your heat tho? :?

We all have real lives, and when we decide to compete we have already set aside that time to do so. If the wait is too long for some to be sitting in the stands, i suggest logging off for a bit, have a cup o tea :sleepy: and just monitor the scores, and log back in for the final heat, which is now another option that is available.
I'm not saying this ruling is the right descision, :beta: but let's at least try it first, and see if it can work, we may be pleasantly suprised :gamer: :partee:
0 x

User avatar
RICK
SLSA Surfer
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:38 pm
SL Name: Rick Galli
Contact:

Re: SLSA EVENT RULES 8/15/12

Postby RICK » Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:10 pm

First, I must agree with everything that Abel said ...
Can the SLSA board, change so much, all rules, before consulting the members?
This is the question ...
0 x
Rick

User avatar
Revy
SLSA Surfer
Posts: 177
Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:03 am
SL Name: none
Contact:

Re: SLSA EVENT RULES 8/15/12

Postby Revy » Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:28 am

Melian Catronis wrote:The following SLSA Event Rules represent the current state of the work. It is still under revision to include things to hopefully make event proceedings more clear.


How can something under a current state of the work be applied the open Membership much less an actual competiton? These changes should this one be solidified and then presented? You should not apply something that is that is under revision to an active organization and leave it up to the Membership to monitor the rules as they are invented.

Abel is absolutely right! The expectation that a whole day will be given to a competition that in which NO CLEAR RULES FOR JUDGING standards have been designed and is completely based on individual judging preferences and interpretation.

Once you compete, knowing that everything is subjective, you must wait until the end of the final heat to figure out if you make the finals.

The board only has 3 active members, please be responsible and put this up for a membership wide proposal or wait until the board is complete. Write the Pro and Cons of the proposal out clearly.
0 x

User avatar
KantbeThursday
SLSA Hall of Fame
Posts: 1484
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 4:44 pm
SL Name: Kantbe Thursday
Contact:

Re: SLSA EVENT RULES 8/15/12

Postby KantbeThursday » Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:11 pm

Ahhhh.... the Good Life

Ain't be'n a Director great? :bw: :rtfm: :nyahnyah:

If ya don't like the meal, get IN the kitchen. But ya know what they say about too many cooks.

If you're want to be a Director, just be prepared for all the pot shots and by all means, be prepared to put on your think'n cap, anyone else's shoes, and work. It's much easier to criticize than create. Just bear in mind that a good Director is just trying to do their best to represent the overall membership to the best of their ability.

:beer:
0 x
- Kantbe

Sometimes it's hard to find, but usually there really is a silver lining back there. Maybe that lining's frayed a little, but most of the time it's there.

User avatar
Abel Halderman
SLSA Surfer
Posts: 1802
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:07 am
SL Name: Abel Halderman
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: SLSA EVENT RULES 8/15/12

Postby Abel Halderman » Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:57 pm

First off, I’d like to say that the Barton Springs competition was awesome. It went mostly smoothly, the sim was acting great and the staff has done a great job. Well done!

It is not my intention to upset anyone, or make anyone feel like they’re not doing a great job. They are! But as a member of this Association with a certain experience as a member of the Board or an officer in many competitions throughout the last few years, I feel obligated to speak up simply because 1. I have questions, 2. At this point I totally disagree with the decision.

Kat wrote:Try it, if it is the case that it don't work, well then revise it again

Agree, that statement works for every possible change made in any organization, and it should. It comes from an open-minded point of view. Yet, like with every change made by any RL organization, there are several stages (phases) of making such an important decision. One of them is making sure that to the best of the management knowledge, it is the best decision possible, before the decision is made. I don't think it worked like that this time. There is a lot of experienced surfers, judges, officers, SLSA Advisors, ex-directors etc. here that are quick to share their knowledge and experience if asked. They were not asked for their opinions though.

There are also different kinds of decisions to be made by a management. Some affect more people, some affect less people or can only make things better. If we compare this one to the one made about moving the sim, let's face it: the only people that could be in any way affected by that was a few personal friends of the Archipelago owner, since nobody else visited the sim anyway. And now, the SLSA has a sim that is effectively functioning, visited, and the land group is actually the SLSA group. Hell, even I have my home location there ;-)

And here we have a decision that not only is not consulted with anyone, not only made by a 3 out of 5 people *elected* Board of Directors, but also a decision that affects everyone being an active member of the Association in the most important field of the organization activity defined by the Constitution. Sure, you can legally do it. But does it make it right to do it as an elected official? Clearly there is a significant difference between those 2 decisions.

Another example of an important decision would be the one about allowing different boards than SSI in competitions. We had two separate membership surveys before that one was made, even though at least most, if not all, of the Board members personal opinions were in favor of that change.

Also, one more example of a decision comes to mind, equally significant - the one about changing the competition format to 2 events a month, triggered by an important and, if I remember correctly, over a 40 posts long thread on the forum.

I wanted to wait with looking at the posts in this thread until the Barton competition is concluded. Why upset myself or anyone else for that matter prior to an awesome season kick-off? ;-) But now that the Barton comp is in the books, I'd like to post a few clearly important questions I would like to ask the Board to respond to as I feel they are critical to the Association:


1. Isn't it true that it is not unseen in competitions that different heats have different lag conditions? If so, isn't it also true that this decision has a potential of being destructive to the fairness of the SLSA competitions?

2. How does the SLSA Board feel about the requirement for surfers to wait for several hours to learn whether they advanced or not in comparison to instant results announced before? Can you please show me an example of such a requirement in any of the surfing organizations regulations?

3. Having known the importance of this decision and the fact that it would affect every single active member of the Association, and having given a 2 months off-season to make changes, why wasn't the Membership consulted about it?

Thank you in advance for your responses.
0 x

Bobbi Laval
SLSA Surfer
Posts: 715
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2007 1:50 pm
Contact:

Re: SLSA EVENT RULES 8/15/12

Postby Bobbi Laval » Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:19 am

I'll try to answer the questions. Changing the competition rules in such a significant way is not an easy decision to make. In this case it has been an issue many have struggled with for a long time. Even early in SLSA history issue of "luck of the draw" had been brought up. Sometime in late 2008 or 2009 the original heat allocation method changed. It was never announced to anyone, and I was never able to find out who changed it or why. But every season someone talks about the unfairness of "luck of the draw". Whether this is brought up to board members or just to other members it was a recurring concern and has been since the beginning SLSA. The main concern being, is how do you or can you best distribute ranks fairly and evenly across all heats. And there are so many variables, especially when you throw HP boards into the mix. And no matter what you come up with, it's not going to be a perfect system. Anything that is an advantage to one surfer will be a disadvantage to another. And though the new rule does not change the method of heat allocation, the intention is that to a large degree it mitigates the concerns about heat allocation. So to answer the questions posed.

1. Changing lag conditions has always been the primary reason for not using scores across the competition. Though we have always used them for rankings, just not for advancement to semis or finals. And in the past conditions always changed to a very significant degree. However, over time lag conditions and stability of sims has improved. Linden Labs has improved servers and more importantly fixed bugs that caused degradation of sim performance. Some early difference in performance from heat to heat was caused by the surfers themselves. Beginning at the last comp of 2009 SLSA instituted and started enforcing no attached scrips rule that mitigated any difference in performance caused from heat to heat by scripted attachments surfers themselves may have been wearing. Whereas it used to be very common to restart sims in the middle of a competition, now sims are very stable. Sims can now run for days, even weeks without needing a restart. It has been several seasons now since SLSA has had to restart a sim during a competition due to degradation in performance. Do-overs for lag spikes in competition used to be very common, now do-overs hardly ever occur. So changing lag conditions in a sim are just not the concern they used to be. That being said, if some unforeseen condition should arise that caused a significant change in sim lag conditions, there are already mitigations in place. If an individual surfer is affected, we can offer a redo as has always been the case. If sim performance stats drop and do not correct themselves, we can always restart the sim as used to be common in the past.

2. We did consider having to wait to find out if a surfer has advanced or not. The worst case scenario would be a surfer from Heat 1 or Heat 2 not knowing till the end of Heat 6 to find out if they will advance or not. But that is the worst case. Not everyone surfs in Heat 1 or 2, and as the heats progress the question of if you advance or not becomes more clear. By the end of Heat 5, 2/3s of all the surfers will know if they will be advancing or not. But even a surfer from Heat 1 will after a few heats be able to make a very qualified estimation if they have a chance of advancing or not. Objectively the overall length of the competition does not change. And many surfers even if they are not advancing stay to support friends, team mates, or loved ones. Not everyone would wish to stay, but for those that do not wish to, and know they have a chance of advancing, to some degree they are still free to pursue other activities. Now that results are instantly available on SLSA database, a surfer can check status of competition anytime from a smartphone. So it kinda goes back to what is an advantage for one person is a disadvantage to another one, and how do we balance that out. I can not say if a person will be disappointed by having to stay or not. Some would choose to stay anyway. When they signed up they know how long a competition may last, objectively overall length of competition does not change. But there is another possible mitigation, last season be began letting surfers request an early or late heat when they register for a competition. There is no garuntee we can always comply with that request, but usually we do. So if someone is really very concerned about waiting around, they are free to request a later heat. If someone is victim of "luck of draw" we can not predict if they will be disappointed or not, but we know that many of them have been. I looked back and ran several scenarios to see what affect this rule change might have. In past at least 2 people per competition were bumped out of advancing, often more. Usually bumped out by those in heats with only two or three people, or very low scoring heats. There is no way to measure how much people were disappointed to receive results that did not reflect the way they performed, but the old system certainly was inequitable. So someone might not like the idea of having to wait around for results, on the other hand, a person with a 3rd or 4th place finish might really be happy to wait around if they are still in the cut, cause at least they still have a chance of advancing, rather than being disappointed right away.

3. As a former director you know how busy the off season can be. After the last comp there is awards ceremony to plan, and a new season to get ready for. Sims to select, sponsorships to sell, etc. And after the resignation of one of the Directors, fewer people to get all the work done. And honestly behind the scenes there was allot of work going on, and many issues and concerns being sorted out. I do regret that time before the start of the season was running out. I think we would have preferred to post the proposed rule changes in Advisors Circle to discuss. That being said, 3 Directors did not discuss and decide in a vacum. We were addressing concerns brought up in unresolved discussion thread from previous Directors. Though this solution took a very different direction, it does mitigate many issues regarding heat allocation. And though this was not discussed in front of the whole membership in the forums, it was discussed with several active surfers. The idea of this change came from one of those surfers. So the way this decision was made came down to this. We did not believe this would be an approprate rule change to make mid-season. Would this be a change that would be a positive benefit for the most members? We believed that it would be. So was this an important enough decision to implement this season, or to wait 6 months for next board to implement. We believed that it would be better not to wait. We knew that not every member would like the decision but believed that most would.
0 x

User avatar
Ace
SLSA Surfer
Posts: 101
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:55 am
SL Name: Ashoka Mosely
Contact:

Re: SLSA EVENT RULES 8/15/12

Postby Ace » Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:42 am

Adding on ...

I'm one of those that suggested the current rule change as it ensures that the best surfers go through as opposed to luck of the draw.

It is critical though that when a judge gives a score to someone from heat 5 and 6 , that score has to account for the fact that lag conditions faced by heat 5 and 6 surfers is far more than that faced by heat 1 and 2 surfers.

The other issue raised by Abel is a very fair and pertinent point about heat 1 and 2 surfers having to wait longer for their results, which, may come to nought if heat 5 and 6 score better.

However, in my opinion, it is an inconvenience that a small number of people will unfortunately just have to "accept" and similar to those of us in the Southern hemisphere that have to wake up at 2am, 3am, 4am, etc ... for surfing competitions.

In these situations, we've requested to be in heat 5 and 6 to be as close to 4am starting point as possible so it doesnt screw up our Sundays too much, but, it does not always happen, and it is something that we have had to "accept" because we are a smaller number than US and EU timezones.

There were a few situations last season in which I had requested to be in the last heat due to timzones to the head judges / facilitators, but, was put in heat 1 and 2 instead. Because of this, I wasn't able to compete...

Back to the points on the judging and a way to gain "buy-in" and mitigate concerns on fairness, will be good to get some specifics and micro-detail on how judging for heat 5 and heat 6 surfers will be different from heat 1 and 2 surfers to account for different lag conditions.

Thanks,

Ace
0 x

User avatar
Abel Halderman
SLSA Surfer
Posts: 1802
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:07 am
SL Name: Abel Halderman
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: SLSA EVENT RULES 8/15/12

Postby Abel Halderman » Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:56 pm

Ace wrote:It is critical though that when a judge gives a score to someone from heat 5 and 6 , that score has to account for the fact that lag conditions faced by heat 5 and 6 surfers is far more than that faced by heat 1 and 2 surfers.

Judges do not and never should determine their scores by how bad the lag was. Judges can only score what they see - a surfer's performance, not what a surfer was incapable of doing on the wave due to whatever (incl. lag). Again, judges can only score what they see in front of them and should never guess on matters like "what would happen if no lag". Another words, a judge cannot score something as "very good" if it's not, but maybe would be if no lag.

Bobbi Laval wrote:However, over time lag conditions and stability of sims has improved. Linden Labs has improved servers and more importantly fixed bugs that caused degradation of sim performance. Some early difference in performance from heat to heat was caused by the surfers themselves.

"Has improved"... true. It's not perfect either and you must agree: a competition with different lag conditions in different heats is a possibility. It happens = fairness of the comp is compromised.
Two days ago another Head Judge responded to my complements regarding the HJ HUD and its effectiveness in noticing if a judge by mistake didn't submit their score: "one score can change everything". Agree, and paraphrasing that, one competition with unfair results can change the whole season, and not in a very good way. This solution allows one bad day to mess up with the whole season. That is why I think it's wrong.

Also, if the line of thinking is to look at the scores, why let #1's from each heat advance regardless of what score they got? If that line of thinking is correct, why not just top 12 results in the preliminary? Sure it would probably include all of the heat winners, but you can't be sure of that, either.

Another thing, the previous "tournament" format works in every major surfing association in RL. There is a reason for that. It's the most universal, and yes, some surfers in some heats may not advance even though they have a higher score than other surfers that advanced in other heats, but isn't that basically the definition of a tournament?

Jay DiMartino, a Hawaiian professional surfing judge that has worked for ESA, HASA, NSSA, PSAA, HPAC, and the ASP, said:
"An easy way to set your scale is by judging all the waves in a heat based on the first complete ride. If the first surfer up completes three solid moves, and you give that ride a 7.5, then all waves should be scored according to that ride. Always remember that first wave, and think whether later waves are better of worse. This sounds simple, but that’s the beauty of it. This technique eliminates any concerns when conditions change. You don’t base your scoring on previous heats. Remember, it all comes down to that first wave".

Bobbi Laval wrote:By the end of Heat 5, 2/3s of all the surfers will know if they will be advancing or not.

In response to that: good conditions allow 1 heat to take 25-30 minutes. Bad conditions may make that time longer, even 45 minutes. Heat 5 concludes - it is a 2.5 hrs wait for heat 1, a 2 hours wait for heat 2, a 1.5 hrs wait for heat 3 etc. And that is only if the comp runs very smoothly. Also, that is the time that the surfers wait not knowing if they advance or not. Maybe it's fine for some people to do that, some others probably will do that anyway, but setting that as a requirement is not fair, especially that comps take place on Saturdays and many people may have other plans in case they don't advance. If the SLSA wants to be open to as many new surfers as possible, it should make things easier for them, not harder. It is an over 1000 people group, of which only 26 surfed in the last series. This solution doesn't help with attracting more of the SLSA members to the comps.

Bobbi Laval wrote:As a former director you know how busy the off season can be.

Yes, I've served for a long time and before that I assisted with several tasks, and I know that if there are any changes, especially important ones to make, the off season is the time for that. And posting a quick question on the forum in a sort of "Hey, guys, what would you think if we did this or that" takes 5 minutes and triggers a discussion that will give the directors more knowledge/points of view to make the best decision possible.

Bobbi Laval wrote:And though this was not discussed in front of the whole membership in the forums, it was discussed with several active surfers.

Come one guys, be open and communicate with the Membership about important changes like that, not just with a few selected surfers.

Again, my apologies if I made anyone feel bad about the whole thing or put in a defensive position, but I just felt that speaking up in a situation like that is critical for an active member.
0 x

User avatar
Sally LaSalle
SLSA Surfer
Posts: 1619
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:39 pm
SL Name: Sally LaSalle
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: SLSA EVENT RULES 8/15/12

Postby Sally LaSalle » Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:24 pm

How does this rule change effect any surfer individually?
We know for a fact that :-
1. Surfers do not require any change to their surfing style or technique in any way due to this rule change.
2. Surfers do not change when there heat starts, nor when their semi final or final may start due to this rule change.
i.e. 1 & 2 above are identical to what we had.
Now I don't know about anyone else, but when i sign up, I sign up for two reasons, 1 is to compete, with the ultimate goal of winning the event, and 2 is to enjoy the atmosphere of the comp and the surfing of everyone that signs up. (In other words .. I sign up for the full 5 hours!). But, if you only sign up to compete in your one heat, and you don't expect to progress, that's cool, but again, nothing has changed for you if that is your goal.
For people that don't show up for the start of the comp but magically appear before the start of their heat, how do they know this? They know it because they have friends or the EC IM'ing them and telling them their heat is about to start. Again this is cool, and again it doesn't change, for the heats or semi finals. in other words if you cant wait around until the end of the prelims ... you don't have to, but you also aren't going to miss your semi.

So far that seems like a lot of "no change", so what exactly does this rule change? It changes this ...

Some poor shmo that maybe got the 3rd or 5th highest score of the entire day, but who happened to be in the same heat as the others that got the 1st and 2nd highest scores for the whole day. That person who in the old system was eliminated, now has a chance to progress.

In other words the surfers with the best performances now progress, instead of surfers that lucked out into a two-man heat. Anyone with a performance in the top 12 of the prelims, no longer has to be gutted by the fact that they surfed really well, but that someone-else is going to the semi finals and they aren't simple because they were in the "wrong heat".

So what about lag?
In my experience, "lag" is *THE* most misunderstood characteristic of SL, there are all kinds of superstitions, folklore and outright non-sense spouted about lag that its almost funny.
One of my all time favorite Myths, is that if you cam lock a surf, you will lag them out. That is total BS, it makes no difference to a surfer at all if you are cam locked on them or not. the surf sim will send you (sitting in the spectator sim) updates about the position of the surfer whether you are focused in on them or whether you are focused on a rock. But I digress.

Currently in SL, sim side performance degradation over time, has been eliminated. So lag doesn't gets worse (at the server level) between one heat and another anymore. Also the SLSA makes sure of this from the surfer side by requiring that scripted attachments of all kinds are removed from surfers person. So one surfer that is running a weather simulation or a SETI experiment in their hud can no longer drag the sim to its knees and screw up the other surfers rides. This is checked and enforced by the marshal.

If you think that SL is getting lag-ier as the day goes along ... it's you!! You need to log out clear you cache and come back. Or you need to phone you network provider and ask them what is going on. Judges when they are trained for the SLSA are taught very specifically to make the distinction between Server Side and Client Side Lag. They have the tools, the skills and the processes to be able to make that distinction. If there is for some unknown reason a reversion to the bad old days when sims would get worse and worse over time on the server side .. we can go back to resetting sims like we did in the past. If there is a Lag Spike, and it effects a wave, we can offer a do-over. These are things we have always done. In addition, the judging guidelines state that if its client (surfer) side lag, then its unfortunate, but there is nothing we as judges can do about your computer or network.

So the RL thing.
While SL surfing attempts to approximate the sport of RL surfing to some degree, there are a couple of major differences (other than the obvious we aren't actually on water). But this leads to a couple of indisputables... in SL .. EVERY wave is identical !! RL Surfers only dream of that luxury. So with every wave being identical in every heat, we have the luxury that RL doesn't have of being able to compare performance across heats (in fact even between waves). The more fundamental difference we have in SL is the difference between different surfboards, the differences in SL are amplified to a hugely more significant degree than differences between RL surfboards. That's a whole different issue tho and something that still needs to be addressed once and for all, but which doesn't have a bearing on this rule change.
0 x
☼☼☼☼☼☼
Sally LaSalle

Image

Figger Arun
SLSA Surfer
Posts: 384
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:01 pm
SL Name: Figger Arun
Contact:

Re: SLSA EVENT RULES 8/15/12

Postby Figger Arun » Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:55 pm

WOOOOT
Now that this can of worms has been opened I hafta say that the idea of advancing strictly based on scores sounds pretty darn good. I mean why should a heat "winner" with a score of 12 advance when a surfer in a different heat who didnt "win" but scored 13 does not ?? If we're after fairness, seems to me the most fair solution is to advance surfers on the basis of their scores, period.
Actually this kinda reminds me of how Crab HP comps were scored although I really dont know much about it LOL didnt Leo give everybody their scores at the end ?? Hey now there's a thought dont score anybody at all till the very end of the comp then we all hafta stick around LOL
Figger
0 x

User avatar
Abel Halderman
SLSA Surfer
Posts: 1802
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:07 am
SL Name: Abel Halderman
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: SLSA EVENT RULES 8/15/12

Postby Abel Halderman » Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:13 pm

Sally LaSalle wrote:Now I don't know about anyone else, but when i sign up, I sign up for two reasons, 1 is to compete, with the ultimate goal of winning the event, and 2 is to enjoy the atmosphere of the comp and the surfing of everyone that signs up.

I sign up to compete. I don't sign up to be around friends - no signing up needed for that. Sure it's fun to be around friends and all, but that I can do any other day, not one of two days in a week that I can spend with my RL family. Right now, it is required that I hang around. And I'm not talking about being in SL. You're stuck around the computer for another few hours and you have to wait for your result instead of proceeding with your Saturday's Plan B. Personally, I am not sure if my RL family is going to allow me to do that. Certainly it is my decision if I decide to log off and refuse to wait for hours possibly just to learn that I'm done with competing for the day. It kind of bothers me that because of that regulations change I may have been eliminated from competing again. I imagine I'm not the only one having Saturday's Plans B.

Thank you Sally for the clarification regarding lag.
So now, it seems that it can be guaranteed that lag conditions on the server side will not progressively worsen throughout any SLSA competition ever, unless LL messes up big time with something. If so, great! A big chunk of my doubts regarding the fairness of the new rules is gone.

There is one "tiny" thing though: as everybody knows, a part of the scoring process is a subjective impression a judge gets. No denying that. That's why judges' scores vary. Consistency is the key though, so as long as the judges are consistent, we're good. This subjective impression is not only likes/dislikes in regard to surfing style, but also what I mentioned in my first post in this thread - a comparison between surfers. As there is no objective scale of scoring, that would describe all possible combinations of moves and tricks, and there can't be such a description, it is critical that the judges use some point of relevance in their scoring process. A reversed way of scoring, that is start with a 10 and then remove points for lack of control, style etc. would be a good substitute. Another words, you can't use the 1st wave in a heat as the wave you compare other waves in that heat to anymore, like DiMartino suggested, but you do have to score somehow, according to something. So in my opinion, the reversed way of scoring would be a good idea for everyone.

That would move me closer to removing my doubts about fairness if not one thing: seeing 5 or 6 surfers in one heat often representing totally different skill sets, or just seeing a huge gap between their skill levels, with a few minutes break between heats, having judged 6 heats in a row, 90 waves in total, do you really think that the first surfer in heat one will be scored according to the same scale as the fifth surfer in heat 6?
There is a human factor. Judges are not computers. Like I said, I am pretty sure judges always have scored surfers in part in relevance to what other surfers in that heat did. It sure wasn't a conscious effort to compare, either, although even professional RL judges suggest comparison as an easy and safe way of scoring. There is no way such a comparison can be avoided either. It's a human nature. The effect of that on the overall competition results can be limited, e.g. by having heats of which only #1 and #2 advance, which in result makes a judge's natural habit of comparison to compare 5-6 surfers, 15-18 waves, not 30 and 90 waves. Let's not ignore human factors in judging, and rather try to limit them instead of giving them a go.

That also brings up a question of why change the old system? Is it more fair now? No. It's looks more fair on paper. You look at all the scores and results and you get an impression that best surfers advanced. In reality and potentially it is not always true. Before judges could have a clear point of relevance, their job was a lot easier (=safer for the surfers), and now, not having any ideal detailed scale of scoring, the point of relevance of a rested and fresh judge that haven't seen any competitive surfing that day watching surfer #1 and a tired judge even 3-4 hours later that has watched 29 surfers and nearly 90 waves watching surfer #30, may be dramatically different. So an 8.0 in heat 1 and an 8.0 in heat 6 will rarely mean two performances being equally good.

Either way, I rest my case.
0 x

User avatar
Sally LaSalle
SLSA Surfer
Posts: 1619
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:39 pm
SL Name: Sally LaSalle
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: SLSA EVENT RULES 8/15/12

Postby Sally LaSalle » Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:48 pm

We only have 10 pro events (events that run longer than 2 hours) per year. That means you have 81% of your Saturdays free to do whatever you like. But the truth is .. you have 100% of your Saturdays free to do whatever you like. This is the SLSA, the SLSA runs surf competitions, the people in the group that sign up for those, do so of their own free will, because presumably they enjoy it. At a bare minimum, I would imagine that most people come to watch for at least a couple of hours, the time it takes to run the preliminary heats, ie they have an expectation for sharing at least a couple of hours with the surf community.

In my opinion, this rule doesn't change that at all.
[[ Aside: The new SLSA scoreboard system allows you to monitor heat scores [url]while logged off SL[/url], this will be further enhanced with twitter (micro-blogging) updates for the heat results as well as marshal relay "tweets". You can now log off SL and go shopping, have a massage or whatever else and keep an eye on your standing and when your semi final will start without even being in SL]]

Even without this rule change, the SLSA has been comparing scores across heats for the last 5 years (10 seasons)! We have always used heat scores to assign ranks to surfers. That's a fact. And those ranking assignments may have just as much if not more bearing on the outcome of the season than the result in any one heat. So we have ALWAYS had a requirement for judges to be consistent, and impartial across the entire event. When I run the judge training course, those that have taken them will know that I repeat that message over and over and over again, judges have it drummed into them .. Be Consistent, Be Impartial.

In my opinion, this rule doesn't change that at all.

We haven't had a sim restart due to sim performance degradation in any of the 30 events of the past 3 seasons. This is due primarily to the elimination of the Mono Compilation Bug see this post for the facts .. https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3895
Do we have to "guarantee" that sim performance wont degrade any more? NO we Dont!! The event staff, run sim performance monitors for the entire event. Sim performance is routinely monitored and the SLSA has mechanisms for dealing with sim side performance issues. The Marshal routinely monitors surfers for resource hogging scripts and has them removed.

In my opinion, this rule doesn't change that at all.

Do we have Pro competitions, where people progress without having to even try to surf well? Yes we do!! It is not uncommon that some Pro heats in the past have been run with 2 surfers. Those two surfers could (under the old rule) go out "miss" each wave get a total heat score of 3.00 each, and BOTH under the old system, would progress to the semi finals. Meanwhile someone that ripped it and got a 15.00 in another heat (but came 3rd by 0.16 points) misses out.

In my opinion, this rule DOES change that .. and thank goodness !!!
0 x
☼☼☼☼☼☼
Sally LaSalle

Image

User avatar
Xander Datura
SLSA Hall of Fame
Posts: 422
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 9:33 pm
SL Name: Xander Datura
Location: NYCish
Contact:

Re: SLSA EVENT RULES 8/15/12

Postby Xander Datura » Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:29 am

hellurrr :D
It's 5 am and i can't sleep.. :faint:
I was composing a reply to this thread last night when my ipad died on me, after the reboot I had lost it all.. But anyhoo, I'll toss out a few things if I may :) Just opinions mind you, and as Abel said, I'm NOT out to offend either.. I love the open dialouge!!

I can say that I both understand Abels concerns, and think the answers given are clear and amazing.. :) The lag thing getting brought up I hope helps many out there, with more than just surfing events to!! Avatar scripts and client functionality awareness is slim to none in some other communites I hang out in.. I've met people running over 200 scripts, that have never heard of caches, and blame all their lag on SL.. A cleaning caches reboot goes a loooooong way, as well as routine PC maintenance to make anything people do in SL a better expirience.

As for the rule change.. I was actually talking with some people about this rule last season, but not as it applied to us in the SLSA.. This method is nothing new to sports as a whole.. It's actually used in MANY other sports around the world.. The XGames run most/many of their skateboard, BMX and motocross events this way, and most other organizations that deal in those sports either have or are converting to the method as well.. The Olympics and most school systems run many of their track & field events this way.. Its tried and true, nothing new. I realize none of what I listed is surfing, but the way we compete isn't really like RL surfing comps either.. The comparison is apples and... samsung.. :gaffaw: We have the exact same wave cranking away, down the exact same path, over and over.. Conditions such as what the waves are doing (if anything), wind and weather in general arent an issue.. If it was in SL, it'd be even MORE time consuming.. RL surf comps can take days with delays, and have to keep an open schedule as conditions change. The hydrodynamics of SL are... well nonexistent.. We have consistent identical conditions to both practice and compete on, so it is more like a 1/2 pipe or stationary track or street setup when you think of the physics. The only thing 'fluid' about any of it is the human reaction to the scenario, and therfore a fair comparison to those other sports I think.. This general change in all applied sports events ensures a more fair lineup for semi's and finals for all the reasons mentioned here already.. I mean when the heat list is generated, if 5 of the BEST Skaters in the world lets say get in one heat, and 5 noobs end up in one heat, more of the top performers will move on based on SCORE, making for a far more interesting final battle, as opposed to watching the same couple winners slaughter the noobs.. In the other method if a couple legends ended up in the semi with 4 no names that placed second in their heats, u know whos gonna win right off the bat, head for the concession stand.. if its same situation for the final.. head for the parking lot to beat traffic.. comps over.. lame.. Yes in the newer way some people end up not knowing their fate until the end 'they're on the bubble', and that person could worse case scenario be in heat 1.. BUT, as someone that watches those sports, on TV AND the stands, thats part of the fun!! Its more exciting and interesting for the MANY, even if its nerve racking for the individual.. But we all know stress is part of the deal in a competition!!! Try being in that spot for a couple hours, not knowing, and see how GOOD you'd feel if you make it through! Could be a hell of a rush!! woohoo Granted on the other side of that coin.. waiting and not knowing, then losing out in the last minutes WOULD suck.. But, cant win them all :)

As for the timing thing.. Yes people can go spend time with friends any day in SL, and people DO.. And agreed, NO signing up needed to be around friends.. But I go to the comps I'm not even surfing in too.. I enjoy the comps for watching the community come together and COMPETE.. yeah I can see my friends any day, but 50 of them in one place, at the same time with 30 surfing against each other is pretty damn cool! That doesnt happen every day.. It's EASILY worth a few hours a month to me.. I LOVE watching all the different styles you guys have, watching Mick paddle onto a wave backwards (lol), that butt pucker when someone comes SO close to shooting out, then cuts back in at the last possible second.. \e/ Watching people improve over time or do something new for them.. THATS great to me, and thats what the comps in SL are for me.. Its not like anyones making a LIVING off of it like rl pros do, so the trophies and prizes are just the gravy anyways.. I can understand a competitive spirit too mind you, and thats cool!! :strut:
But I dont see where anything or anyone in RL would change based on if I place or not riding in a digital surfing comp.. I have friends and family that think the whole thing is a waste of time, and that's regardless of if I advance or not, lol.. But they know things and the PEOPLE in SL are important to me, so they don't give me TOO much grief :P Even if they do, their opinion wouldn't change one way or the other if I told them I made finals, was working as head judge, WON the comp.. anything.. would probably just confuse them, earn me an eye-roll or an "and?" :rofl:
Everyones situation is different, and I understand that.. I just don't see how time in RL could become more or less important based ONLY on the outcome of a heat? I mean it's all SL.. Now, I'm NOT SAYING I'm judging anyone for how much time they do or do not spend in SL!! Just saying that as I see it, at its core, it's either a waste of time, or its not.. Prim trophies, a couple bucks and heat or final rankings wouldnt change it from one to the other either way.. :gamer:

I certainly hope the change won't be the reason for anyone not competing though! ! ! I think its gonna be a great season :) Regardless of how we all feel about the change, the last comp was fun right!? I THINK everyone thats added to the thread either has already said or would agree to that, and so if thats something we CAN all agree on, lets hang on to THAT spirit and make the next one just as awesome, or even more so!! :toast:

Thanks for readin :D
See you all around!!
Xan
0 x
Xander Lunasea (Datura), AKA: Xan-Boney

User avatar
Melian Catronis
SLSA Surfer
Posts: 279
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 2:43 pm
SL Name: Melian Catronis
Location: USA. Home Planet: Neptune
Contact:

Re: SLSA EVENT RULES 8/15/12

Postby Melian Catronis » Thu Aug 30, 2012 4:26 pm

All I can say is what I saw on Saturday during the Barton Springs Event. In that we had 25-30 surfers compete, we ran 10 heats from prelims to semis to finals, all using the new rules. And the comp was over in 4 hours. Of course there were many reasons for this, not the least is that Vally chose to keep Barton Springs largely undeveloped to cut down on any potential lag issues (trees and buildings and scripted vendor signs DO create some lag). But we didn't seem to have greater or fewer no-shows on Saturday under the new rules than we had under the old rules, and those who could not attend were largely accounted for.

In short, I think a lot of this is much ado about nothing. Everyone can find theoretical flaws in all theoretical ideas, but not know about real flaws until those theoretical ideas become reality through implementation. Now that the rule changes have been implemented, let's wait and see what problems do occur and cross the bridge when we get to the bridge and have some hard empirical proof that the rule changes make things worse instead of better before we declare a failure and refuse to compete because of it. Otherwise it just all comes across as teenagers who, upon finding Mom and Dad have instituted a household rule that crimps their lifestyle, will resort to whining and pouting and arguing until Mom and Dad relent and let them do what they want.
0 x
Just when you think you have the answers, I change the questions.

Figger Arun
SLSA Surfer
Posts: 384
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:01 pm
SL Name: Figger Arun
Contact:

Re: SLSA EVENT RULES 8/15/12

Postby Figger Arun » Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:12 pm

But I'm so GOOOOD at whining and pouting !!
0 x

User avatar
Valium Lavender
SLSA Surfer
Posts: 352
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2010 9:51 pm
SL Name: Valium Lavender
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: SLSA EVENT RULES 8/15/12

Postby Valium Lavender » Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:03 am

I agree with Mel's last post. Reading all the opinions about a problem that doesn't exist as of yet hurt my brain O.o I want to hear some happy talk now. How about something positive? Like how organized the Directors were for the Barton Springs Open and Pro. Bobbi made it all look so easy but she worked very hard and did a fantastic job! Bravo!
0 x
Vally !shark:


Return to “Rules and Regulations of the SLSA”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest